"No jobs. Low pay." Can somebody confirm?

[yaustar]

Originally Posted by Claxon

To me when HagNasty said "low level", it sounds like a low level role (doing all the easy little things) rather than low level programming.

Ooooh. That makes more sense.

[HagNasty]

Originally Posted by yaustar

Both DirectX and OpenGL are APIs and most entry level programmers won't be developing that low level when they start.

Usually what happens is they work with others tweaking and changing smaller aspects that have to be done on this level.

Originally Posted by yaustar

Only if you want to be graphics programmer. The demos you present should be representative of what you want to specialise in. E.g. Physics demos for physics programmers, multiplayer for network programmers.

I simply stated this because graphical programming is the easiest to get into followed by AI. It is also one of the easiest to learn as it's properties transfer into other fields (AI, Sound, networking, most everything since you are dealing with the 3d models here) If you are a competent, by all means don't apply for a job in Graphics if you don't want it.

Originally Posted by yaustar

Not in my experience. Putting someone that is inexperienced at the 'root' of the game is not a good decision.

By low level I did mean low level role. From the graphical programmer example I use, a low level position would be something like creating an adapter for a shader into your engine or preforming basic optimizations to code that have been planned out for you. You will not be doing something as implementing the AI or assigning it to characters from word go.

On a side note It also depends what type of game is being created. For a full fledged 3d Action adventure game you will need a lot more experience then if you are making 2D mobile games for cellular phones. It is very difficult to get on a full 3D project without at least 2-3 years of experience (not necessarily professional experience) so Think small to start and work your way up.

[Claxon]

Originally Posted by HagNasty

I simply stated this because graphical programming is the easiest to get into followed by AI.

Are you including gameplay programming in there, because In my experience that is where most people have the experience to start with. Your first space invaders clone for example is more likely to be focussed on programming the gameplay than pixel shaders & normal mapping.

[yaustar]

Usually what happens is they work with others tweaking and changing smaller aspects that have to be done on this level.

I retract my earlier statement to 'it varies'. Different companies will place their new inexperienced hires at different levels of the code base. In my experience, they are normally placed at the higher level abstract end where they can cause the least damage and gradually work their way down as they gain experience and become more familar with the code base.

Some other companies will place them at the core of the engine under heavy supervision and they may need knowledge in a low level API.

The latter is very rare due to the risks involved of a live project. If they make a mistake in the core engine, then it causes knock ons to whatever modules that are using it. Being inexperienced will undoubtedly mean you will make some mistakes.

However, I do agree they should learn an API, be it SDL, OpenGL, DirectX, XNA, DarkGDK, etc so that they have experience of using a framework in some form.

I simply stated this because graphical programming is the easiest to get into followed by AI. It is also one of the easiest to learn as it's properties transfer into other fields (AI, Sound, networking, most everything since you are dealing with the 3d models here) If you are a competent, by all means don't apply for a job in Graphics if you don't want it.

Again, I disagree. Just because it is the (arguably) easiest area to learn (which I disagree on), doesn't mean that have to 'Make sure you use pixel shaders and lighting effects' in their demo.

Also, chances are that the 3D models are abstracted out to a class and the user won't have to do anything graphical to that model short of 'play animation B' unless they are a graphics programmer and perhaps writing the model loader.

You will not be doing something as implementing the AI or assigning it to characters from word go.

Yes, they can if they are employed as an AI programmer in much the same way as any role. Also quite a lot of high level AI can be written by scripters and gameplay programmers such patrol route and party AI using the interfaces to the low level systems that are available.

On a side note It also depends what type of game is being created. For a full fledged 3d Action adventure game you will need a lot more experience then if you are making 2D mobile games for cellular phones. It is very difficult to get on a full 3D project without at least 2-3 years of experience (not necessarily professional experience) so Think small to start and work your way up.

I honestly don't know where you got this from. Whether the project is 2D or 3D makes no difference in the experience you need to join it. The roles available will be different and so will the skills needed but it does not have a direct relation with general experience as a programmer.

[HagNasty]

My opinions are only based on my experience so for some people they will be different. I actually hire programmers and these are the things that we look for. There are always positions open for graphical programmers but not so much for AI or Audio programmers (as long as we have the budget that is).

Larger titles have larger budgets and larger risks. That is why it's harder to get into a big budget 3D game. We would rather hire experience then numbers and get everything done smoothly. (though there are always some bumps that you hit) With cellular game your looking at a $60,000 budget rather then $4,000,000. As a result you tend to have 1 or 2 experienced programers supervising multiple projects while less experienced programmers work under them.

Making games is usually a 4 team project. Programming, Art and Design, Sound, (everyone knows these three) and Marketing and Finance.

[Claxon]

Originally Posted by HagNasty

Making games is usually a 4 team project. Programming, Art and Design, Sound, (everyone knows these three) and Marketing and Finance (The Enemy).

Fixed that for you.

[yaustar]

Originally Posted by HagNasty

Larger titles have larger budgets and larger risks. That is why it's harder to get into a big budget 3D game.

Now it makes more sense. You didn't originally mention budget and size of project, just 2D and 3D.

The fact that it is 2D or 3D is still irrelevant, you can have a big budget AAA 2D game and it be just as hard.