programmers

[soccerboy169]

i dont know that much programing what basic program should i start off with and work from there

[yaustar]

What is your current programming experience?

[soccerboy169]

um nothing

[radertj]

I'd start with a Hello World program in C++. I'd look into getting a book on C++ to help get you started. Try http://www.amazon.com/Primer-Plus-4t.../dp/0672322234 this one. It's one of the easiest to read programming books of its kind. Hope this helps.

[Adrir]

Originally Posted by radertj

I'd start with a Hello World program in C++. I'd look into getting a book on C++ to help get you started. Try http://www.amazon.com/Primer-Plus-4t.../dp/0672322234 this one. It's one of the easiest to read programming books of its kind. Hope this helps.

Personally, I would advise against learning C++ as your first programming language since it has a lot of features that can confuse beginners in addition to being more difficult to debug than other high level languages.

I would advise starting with a language such as Java or Python.

[radertj]

Originally Posted by Adrir

Personally, I would advise against learning C++ as your first programming language since it has a lot of features that can confuse beginners in addition to being more difficult to debug than other high level languages.

I would advise starting with a language such as Java or Python.

Java is much easier to learn. The only gripe I have with it is that it can lead to bad programming practices, because so much is taken care of for you. It's definitely another good place to start though.

[yaustar]

I would suggest Python personally. Start small and slow. Work your way through tutorials and work on small programs such as 'Guess the number' and 'Hangman'.

To give an example on what can be done with Python, look at this article.

[Adrir]

Originally Posted by radertj

The only gripe I have with it is that it can lead to bad programming practices

I'm quite intrigued, this is the first I've heard of people getting bad programming practices from learning Java. On the contrary, I know alot of people who have developed bad programming practices from learning C++ such as using undefinded behaviour in certain compilers, using low level tricks to achieve things without commenting them appropriately and obsessively using goto statements.

Which sort of bad programming practices are you referring to?

[radertj]

Originally Posted by Adrir

I'm quite intrigued, this is the first I've heard of people getting bad programming practices from learning Java. On the contrary, I know alot of people who have developed bad programming practices from learning C++ such as using undefinded behaviour in certain compilers, using low level tricks to achieve things without commenting them appropriately and obsessively using goto statements.

Which sort of bad programming practices are you referring to?

This is exactly the problem. I don't understand what you are referring to with undefined behavior in certain compilers. Also from my experience, C++ programmers rarely use goto statements at all. It's very discouraged unless being used to save something that has fatally failed. I don't know what low level tricks you are referring to (implicit conversion of types instead of expressions maybe?), but the behaviors you are mentioning are used by bad programmers in general. It would be nice if you could name a couple.

I'm referring to Java's built in garbage collection. Many people who learn Java first have a hard time remembering to free dynamic memory in C++. It also can encourage the overuse of Object Oriented Programming. Everything doesn't need to be an object. These are what I have seen.

Typically bad programming practice lessens with experience, but moving from a managed to unmanaged environment can be very cumbersome for people who have relied on the former. Just my 2 cents.

[Adrir]

Originally Posted by radertj

This is exactly the problem.

Originally Posted by radertj

I'm referring to Java's built in garbage collection. Many people who learn Java first have a hard time remembering to free dynamic memory in C++. It also can encourage the overuse of Object Oriented Programming. Everything doesn't need to be an object.

Not really. I disagree that the things you mention are in fact bad practice. Bad practices are things like not commenting code, not coding defensively, not writing tests, not using a house style, etc.

Not remembering that you don't have a garbage collector and forgetting that you don't have to make everything an object is simply a habit you have to get out of. It is true, that this is still a problem, but in my opinion it is easier to learn a managed language first and deal with this problem later than it is to dive head first into the dragons den.

Originally Posted by radertj

...the behaviors you are mentioning are used by bad programmers in general.

Not really since you can't really get bad habits from features that don't exist in a particular language.

Originally Posted by radertj

I don't understand what you are referring to with undefined behavior in certain compilers.

Sorry, I meant unspecified behaviour. Although undefined behavior is also really bad.

A lot of the C++ standard is left unspecified and is left up to specific implementations. So under certain conditions, code will compile and work fine, but using a different compiler or compiler version it will break and do really stange stuff.

For example, all variables of type int are guaranteed to have the same size on the same machine. It is not guaranteed, however, that on another machine, int variables will occupy the same size.

Originally Posted by radertj

Also from my experience, C++ programmers rarely use goto statements at all. It's very discouraged unless being used to save something that has fatally failed.

That's interesting, I knew quite a number of beginners in the Game Creators Club that had a habit of using them a lot. It makes me glad that Code Complete is so large, it actually hurts when I throw it at them and tell them to read the section on goto statements.

Originally Posted by radertj

I don't know what low level tricks you are referring to (implicit conversion of types instead of expressions maybe?)

Anything like this:

      float xhalf = 0.5f*x;
      union
      {
          float x;
          int i;
      } u;
      u.x = x;
      u.i = 0x5f3759df - (u.i >> 1);
      x = u.x * (1.5f - xhalf * u.x * u.x);
      return x;

It's perfectly fine if it's commented, but if it isn't it does take a while to figure out what the heck is actually going on.

Originally Posted by radertj

Typically bad programming practice lessens with experience, but moving from a managed to unmanaged environment can be very cumbersome for people who have relied on the former.

Yes, I agree completely.